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. >>> we begin this morning with debate prep. president obama and his republican rival mitt romney are both getting ready for their first face to face presidential debate in denver wednesday night. romney is holding a rally in the mile-high city today, while the president gears up in nevada. nbc's tracie potts joins us from washington with the latest. >> reporter: good morning, everyone. we get an interesting perspective on this from john mccain, he's debated both the president and mitt romney. he says we will see two very strong well-prepared debaters and he predicts few surprises. the president's behind closed doors in nevada for the next two days preparing to face mitt romney in denver wednesday. >> he's a good debater. i'm just okay. but what i'm most concerned about is having a serious discussion about what we need to do to keep the country growing. >> reporter: both sides are downplaying expectations. a senior aide to the president says romney will be prepared, disciplined and aggressive. romney's debate partner calls the president a tough debater. >> barack obama is going to be formi
as you need to explain it all in wednesday night's debate. >> mitt romney needs a great october. >> we know romney needs a great october. >> to change the course of this campaign. >> the final push is on. >> just days away from the first presidential debate. >> both candidates cramming for the first debate. >> everyone trying to lower expectations. >> franticly spinning to lower expectations. >> president obama is an experienced debatetor. >> i'm just okay. >> almost everyone seems to be muting enthusiasm in trying to undersell thvernlths is mitt's first time. >> i don't buy that. >> chris christie is taking a different tack. >> we have a candidate who is going to do extraordinary well on wednesday night. come thursday morning when we get to thursday morning, the entire narrative of this race is going to change. >> this is mitt's first time. >> are you stupid? >> overselling with gus tow. >> chris christie said the next day will be romney's time to shine. >> don't expect any zingers. >> governor romney is getting by on a zing and prayer. >> i don't know that zingers necessarily turn it
his role playing mitt romney in president obama's debate preparation for wednesday. >> how do you get into the head of mitt romney and how do you prepare to play him with president obama? >> oh, andrea, i'm -- you know, i'm just going to listen to what he's saying but i'm not going to talk much about that process. i think it's better left to the candidates to resolve when they actually debate. >> well, the romney team, beth myers put out a memo really lowering or trying to lower expectations saying that president obama is such a great communicator, such a great debater, that -- >> yeah. >> had all this experience one on one, that mitt romney has only had -- no experience debating one on one because he was only in the republican primary debates. do you buy that? >> oh, please. please, please, please. give me 20 breaks. not just one. mitt romney debated against ted kennedy back in the '90s. he debated one on one when he ran for governor. he probably turned his campaign around when he ran for governor and won the governorship because of what happened in that debate. and listen to the rep
about the debate. that they're expecting way too much of mitt romney. but this being bill o'reilly, he ended up putting even more pressure on romney. >> i think the expectations for the debate are too high. particularly conservative republican americans are expecting mitt romney to go out there and do something and i don't know whether that as even possible right now. the first debate means everything. the whole world is watching this thing. this is a big, big debate on wednesday night. this is much bigger than the mccain-obama debate. >> today mitt romney traveled from boston to colorado where the debate will be held as a major player in romney's fund raiser confirmed to fox business that a few new york donors have backed away from financial commitments to the romney campaign and instead said they will spend their money to help the republicans hold on to the house of represents and pick up seats in the senate. the debates will be very important, said one person with knowledge of the matter. if romney does well, that money could come back. >>> new jersey's governor, chris christie the
prepare for their first debate. both sides trying to lower expectations. >> governor romney, he's a good debater. i'm just okay. >> president obama is a very -- he's a very gifted speaker. the man's been on the national stage for many years. he's an experienced debater. he's done these kinds of debates before. this is mitt's first time on this kind of a stage. >> flashpoint libya, the white house on the defensive after reports of both security and intelligence nurse in benghazi before that terror attack. >> standing up, sitting down. >> which ever one you like. >> there you go. >> do whatever they tell us. >> the white house line is you heard the president say, osama bin laden is dead, al qaeda is done, everything is fine in the middle east. this, obviously, contradicts -- ther series of events contradicts that campaign slogan. so, the fact is, that this was clearly an act of terror committed by people who were pretty well trained jihadists. >> more carnage in afghanistan. the taliban take responsibility for a suicide attack that killed 14 today including three americans. we are deployed
are inexperienced in a one-on-one debate format. few details on the format. the president and romney will be at podiums, standing, not sitting, and there will be no basic time limits on their answers. it's not 90 seconds, buzzer, things like that. it's up to the discretion of the moderator, jim leierer. that's going to be up to him. but there's supposed to be a lot of leeway here over how long the conversations go. the debate is on domestic policy. 90 minutes is supposed to be devoted to the economy specifically with governing and health care. but we'll see if the general nature of those areas allows libya to come up, which we know the romney folks want to do. debates are as much about style as substance and this is a reality show where obama and romney will meet in the first time in nearly five years before their biggest audience of the campaign. the first 2008 presidential debate between the president and john mccain got seven times the audience of the highest rated 2012 republican primary debate. think about that. seven times. past debates show romney and obama have to worry about
the debate. that's my advice to governor romney and it's time to begin panicking a little bit. >> time to begin panicking? but don't worry, governor romney has a solution. zingers. the "new york times" reports that mr. romney's team has concluded that debates are about creating moments and has equipped him with a series of zingers that he has memorized and has been practicing since august. zingers? mr. romney doesn't need zingers. he needs new ideas. he needs a new campaign. truth be told, he needs a new candidate. after all, the guy he's been debating all along has been himself on health care. >> i'm not getting rid of all of health care reform. of course, there are a number of things that i like in health care reform. >> well, of course. i'm going to repeal obama care. i've said that on the campaign trail. i think every single day obama care must be repealed in its entirety. >> he was for it before he was against it. and that auto bailout -- >> you said, quote, if general motors, ford, and chrysler gets the bailouts that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the au
is playing mitt romney in the president debate prep. they had several sessions already but he is heading to nevada for practice ahead of wednesday's debate. >> bret: ed henry live on the north lawn. we'll have a detailed timeline on the libya story. at the bottom of the hour. they have moved chemical weapons to secure them. the syrian rebels are trying to drive forces from aleppo. they have mostly dayed out of the civil war. americans in manila have been warned to keep profile and exercise caution. >> they detected a threat in the manila suburb. this is the final weekend before candidates square off in the first of three debates that could help romney gain momentum or the president, of course. today the campaigns are both raising money and lowering expectations. here is chief political correspondent carl cameron. >> in pennsylvania, democratic leading swing state where he raised $2 million, spark a come from behind in the polls with a speech at the military academy in college. criticizing president obama for down playing turmoil in the middle east and north africa. >> i don't consider th
president obama and his challenger governor romney squaring off in their first presidential debate. but take a look at the real clear politics average of the latest national polls. this, this is the gap that mitt romney has to close in the next five weeks if he is to win on november 6th. topping our political headlines right now, vice president joe biden is on the campaign trail in the critical swing state of florida. as we mentioned a few moments ago. he talked about the gop ticket in ft. myers. >> what they're doing these days, if you notice, they're not talking anymore more about what paul ryan and governor romney are really for. they're spending an awful lot of time telling you what we, barack obama and joe biden are against and what we've done. and they just attack everything. >> the republican vice presidential candidate paul ryan also has a very busy day. congressman ryan is going to have a rally in ohio in just a couple of hours. more on that in just a moment. this morning, though, he was in derry, new hampshire. >> all these promises were made in the idea of hope and change. and peo
of the lines bng used by reicrinohe conservatives is that mitt romney is just this great debater. i mean, he is a great debater. can somebody remind the american people, and i'll do it right now, that we have a smart guy on our side? president oba, let me remind you, is a fierce competitor. he will prepared. nohoisia he knows his accomplishments and he knows exactly where he wants to take this country. can you really say that about mitt romney? get your cell phones out. i want to know what you think. night's question. can the president sustain this momentumor 40 days? tea" yteb" no to 622639. always go to our blog at ed.msnbc.com and leave a comment. we're joined by florida congresswoman, debbie wasserman-schuz, chair of the democratic national commite. congressman, good to have you withs tonight. >> thanks, ed. good to be with you again. >> you bet. are democrats very confident in the nd game that you can duplicate this around the couny,t yohaveeele too in day one in iowa? >> well, ed, we're very proud if you look at the contrast between our two campaigns, president obama's campaign has be
. this is the final weekend before candidates square off in the first of three debates that could help romney gain momentum or the president, of course. today the campaigns are both raising money and lowering expectations. here is chief political correspondent carl cameron. >> in pennsylvania, democratic leading swing state where he raised $2 million, he tried to spark a come from behind in the polls with a speech at the military academy in college. criticizing president obama for down playing turmoil in the middle east and north africa. >> i don't consider the killing of the diplomats in libya as bump in the road. i sure as heck don't consider iran becoming nuclear a bump in the road. we need someone who recognizes the seriousness of what is ahead and willing to lead. [ applause ] >> romney has not spent much time or money. he slipped in the national polls to 4.1 points behind the president. eight points in the keystone state according to the real clear politic average of recent survey but hopeing for a surprise update. >> obama campaign thinks pennsylvania is in their pocket and they don't need
are pretty low. >> brett, last question to you. governor romney, the primary debater versus governor romney the presidential debater. how are they going to be different? >> well, i think if he does what he did in florida, if he goes on offense, then, you know, he'll be the same debater that he was toward the end of the primary season. and that's what he needs to do. if he gets defensive, then i think that's a bad thing. so i think he'll go on offense, though. he certainly has a lot of material to work with. >> what do you think we're talking about wednesday morning, brett o'donnell? are we talking about how great of a performance he had or are we saying agh, this thing is probably over? >> no, first of all i think these could be great debates. you have two very capable debaters heading into the debates. and i think we're going to come out and learn more about the president's policies and learn that it was the president who is responsible for the economic conditions of millions of americans are suffering through right now. >> brett, i was going to give you the last line. i can't let it end t
of 2008. while governor romney has had nearly two dozen debates during that gop primary. the obama campaign says the president's strategy is focused on shorter, crisper answers. the romney strategy, as reported in "the new york times" has the governor memorizing a series of zingers to try to hit the president with. let's bring in our "news nation" political panel for this monday. democratic strategist chris, national radio host michael, and also an msnbc contributor, and villa skype as you can tell from our shot there, steve, conservative radio show host. you have the visual disadvantage because you're skype. i'll let you start off first here. let me play what paul ryan, completely opposite of what chris christie said this sunday. his assessment of the debates. let's play ryan, please. >> i don't think one event is going to make or break this campaign. look, president obama's a very -- he's a very gifted speaker. this is mitt's first time on this kind of a stage. >> it's no secret, steve, you are conservative republican. you are not a fan of mitt romney. is this a make or break mom
of ideas, he has them, that can be debated. he's young enough if the romney/ryan ticket loses in november, he still gets to return to washington assuming he wins re-election to his seat which most likely will happen but he gets to go back to washington as a leader in his party, who can still take up the fight. >> ken, when people say, as jonathan just did, that paul ryan should be unleashed, he was unleashed before the aarp conference where he took his 78-year-old mother and he was allowed to say what he believes about medicare and they booed and abused him throughout his speech. i mean he's off the leash there. what's wrong with that? >> well, i mean that would be some conservatives who are arguing for more of a -- a ryanizing of mitt romney as opposed a romneyizing of paul ryan. those bolder ideas, popular for some on the conservative base definitely bold are nonetheless going to attract some criticism, as they did in this situation. and they would, i think, probably his supporters would say that you take the bad with the good. nonetheless, we're se
romney had what seemed like 163 primary debates earlier this year. how confident are the president's advisers that he's not a tad rusty? >> reporter: you know, i think that that's something, a story line that they would like to promote. what we've seen, it's almost comica comical, to the extent we've seen both camps downplayings the expectations. so much of life is expectations, so much of a political debate like this. one of the president's advisers the other day talking about, you know, the president's so loquacious. he's got to keep his answers tighter. and by turns, mitt romney's camp talking about the president's gifted oratorical skills. so they both can't be right, but i think both sides are relatively confident going into this. >> to hear both of them tell it, the other guy is the best debater since abe lincoln himself. mike viqueira, thank you so much. appreciate your time, sir. there are, of course, great expectations on both sides for next week's debate. the pressure is really on for mitt romney to knock it out of the park, as he entrance the debate, trailing in nine of
, practicing on those debates. of course, the person who is the mock mitt romney, if you will, john kerry, senator john kerry of massachusetts, he also battle tested. he had his own experience in these debates in 2004. people forget he had a series of epic debates debating a republican governor of massachusetts who challenged him for his senate seat back in 1996. that was bill welles. so it's going to be intense, and as you mentioned, he leaves tomorrow, has one event on the ground when he leaves for nevada. then he goes to ground, training at altitude, because the debate is in the mile-high city of denver. but we don't expect to see much of him. he's going to be doing a lot of practicing for that debate wednesday night. >> this is president obama's first debate since 2008. governor romney had what seemed like 163 primary debates earlier this year. how confident are the president's advisers that he's not a tad rusty? >> reporter: you know, i think that that's something, a story line that they would like to promote. what we've seen, it's almost comica comical, to the extent we've seen both
to make his case. >> do you think if the debate's a flop for mitt romney that all of a sudden some super-pacs and big dollar donors, some of the establishment, do they begin to abandon him next thursday? >> i think it will certainly heighten and go to defcon five. what's the next color is on the homeland security chart, i lose track of them, we'll probably go to. i think what mitt needs to do, craig -- >> fuchsia. >> -- is really be himself. stop trying to be a conservative. he's not. we're not talking about a guy with deep ideological convictions. his real moral convictions are in his family where he has a picturesque american model there. beyond that, he's known for making money for himself and other people and creating jobs for those who don't have wealth. that's who he needs to be. >> it sounds like steve is saying let mitt be mitt. is it too late for that? >> well, it's not as though people don't understand who mitt romney is. i'm coming to you from my hometown of madison, wisconsin. wisconsin is a swing state, and wisconsin is the home state of paul ryan, who is also on the republi
television host that debated romney. we will talk more right after the break. joyce myer will talk about the power of words. stay with us, we'll be right back. [ applause ] >>> we're back with brett o'donald and we're talking about the first big debate that comes up on wednesday. in my experience, debating romney four years ago. it appeared to me there were times on the debate stage, i notice there was almost telegraphing some of his forbes and feelings, his facial expressions. that is an important thing that people watch for to see if you are pushing his buttons and getting through to him. i don't know if i noticed it this year's primaries. how important is it that mitt romney gets under the skin of barack obama barack obama get under the skin of mitt romney and it will show to the audience? >> audiences reported they take as much as 65% of the meaning from how something is said over what is said. so body language and how he appears on the stage is very important. normally when a candidate gets defensive that is when they started looking bad. that happens with barack obama. it happened
to be worse than what it was when he took office. >> i may be the only television host that debated romney. we will talk more right after the break. joyce myer will talk about the power of words. stay with us, we'll be right back. the capital one cash rewards card gives you a 50% annual bonus. and everyone, but her... likes 50% more cash. but, i have an idea. do you want a princess dress? yes how about some cupcakes? yes lollipop? yes! do you want an etch a sketch? yes! do you want 50% more cash? no you got talent. [ male announcer ] the capital one cash rewards card. with a 50% annual cash bonus it's the card for people who like more cash. what's in your wallet? i usually say that. [ applause ] >>> we're back with brett o'donald and we're talking about the first big debate that comes up on wednesday. in my experience, debating romney four years ago. it appeared to me there were times on the debate stage, i notice there was almost telegraphing some of his forbes and feelings, his facial expressions. that is an important thing that people watch for to see if you are pushing his buttons and gett
mitt romney to show up in denver. the first debate generally favor challengers. the president never really shined in. is that the right thing to do? >> strategically that's what campaigns do. when you look at -- i watched most of the republican debates. i think governor romney is a very good debater. there's certainly things you can't teach in debates, and that's in terms of how you attack your opponent. he had his bad moments, i.e., his 10,0$10,000 bet, but he was pretty solid. i remember during the primaries when we were prepping against him, it really wasn't -- he wasn't a candidate we were focused on in terms of being concerned about debating. all that being said, usually the challenger in this circumstance would go in with lower expectations. the problem here is because romney's campaign is in such a terrible position, and it's flailing. everyone is fixated on, is this the moment, the debate that turns things around? the expectations are higher for governor romney, and that is the problem. that's what the campaign and governor romney have put themselves in this position where i
rhetorical gifts and debating experience to one end, attacking mitt romney. i have to say, julian, that sounds suspiciously flattering to me. ten minutes ago they were saying the president apologizes to terrorists, can't read a balance sheet, and wouldn't know gdp from his acl. now he's the finest orator since winston churchill. >> this is a really time-worn tactic to lower the expectations before the debate so that romney can claim that he did halfway decent against obama. >> julian, you sound bored even saying the sentence, a time-worn -- >> i think the campaign is starting to get boring as, beca as i say, the republicans just won't bring the "a" game. it fits into the larger narrative of incompetence on the part of the romney campaign. they're unable by everybody's reckoning to run a good campaign. romney is unable to utter anything of great significance when it comes to campaign. and now they're saying he's not ready for the grand stage when it comes to competing against obama. i mean, i have seen more competence in nfl replacement refs than i do in this campaign. >> we're loo
be debated. he's young enough if the romney/ryan ticket loses in november, he still gets t return to washington, assuming he wins re-election to his seat, which most lely wi happe buhes t g b t wagton as a leader in his party, who can still take up the fight. >> ken, when people say, as jonathan jusdid, that paul ryan should be unleashed, he was unleashed before the aarp conferce where he took his 78ear-d moer hs we s w believes about medicare and they booed and abused him throughout his spee. i mean, he's off the leash there. what's wrong with that? >> well, i mean, that would be some conservatives who are arguing for more of a -- a poa romneyizing of paul as ryan. those bolder ideas, popular for some on the conservative base, definitely bold, are nonetheless going to attract some criticism, as they did in this situation. and they would, i think, probably his srtwo saat tth bad with the good. nonetheless, we're seeing very little of really a chance for him to even get to that point where his ideas are being debated on their merits. rvin a vp role.nd we should point out that's tr
is that mitt romney is just this great mehea t debater. can somebody remind the american people, and i'll do it right now, that we have a smart guy on our side? president obama, let me remind you, is a fierce competitor. he will be prepared. he knows his material. he knows who he is. he knows his accomplishments and he knows exactly where heants to te cry can you really say that about mitt romney? get your cell phones out. i want to know what you think. tonight's estion. can the president sustain this momentum for 40 days? text "a" for yes, text "b" for no to 622639. ys t our blog at ed.msn ed.msnbc.com and leave a comment. we're joined by florida congresswoman, debbie wasserman-schultz, chair of the democratic national committee. congresswon, good to have you with us tonight. >> thanks, ed. good to be with youain. >> yt. draerfi in the ground game that you can duplicate this around the country, what you have been able to do in day one in iowa? >> well,ed, we're very proud if you look at the contrast between our two campaigns, president obama's campaign has been in the process and we believ
for the denver debate. joining me now to talk about it, garrett hake, who has been traveling with the romney campaign. garrett, good saturday afternoon to you. what can you tell me about governor romney's debate preparations this weekend? >> well, craig, i can tell you, so far, it hasn't really started at. at the moment, he's over at his oldest son's house in massachusetts. we are expecting governor romney to participate in some more debate prep this weekend. understand senator rob portman from ohio will be here, he'll also be traveling with the governor to denver on monday. they're at the stage now where the expectations game includes not really discussing even when and where they're doing debate prep. the campaign's official line, wherever's preparing for debates, is that he's holding private meetings. they don't want to give the impression that he's doing nothing but studying. >> because, again, if you study for 75 hours for a test, you better make an a-plus, or people begin to say funny things about you. it seems like every day or so, we hear from a new republican, who's hitting the romn
, colorado. the first presidential debate one day away. this is the romney pre-game show. will mitt romney be held accountable for lies and distortions about president obama's record? we got a sneak preview of what happens when mitt romney is forced to tell the truth. a fox affiliate here in denver asked romney to explain what paul ryan could not, how he plans to pay for $5 trillion tax cut by only eliminating deductions. >> there's an option. you could say everybody is going to get up to a deduction and you could use your home mortgage deduction or others, health care deduction and fill that bucket, if you will, the $17,000 bucket that way and higher income people might have a lower number. >> at least the plan has a name. it's the bucket plan. mitt romney will cap deductions at $17,000 for all americans. is that good for the middle class? do the math. for rich americans, the cap, it just might be lower than that. he was very vague on that point as well. the big problem with romney's bucket plan besides being hilarious is it would only cover $1 to $2 trillion of the $5 trillion tax cut. t
the first presidential debate and 35 days until the 2012 election. mitt romney and paul ryan are scrambling. robert gibbs is here tonight to respond. this is "the ed show." let's get to work. >>> you can use your charitable deduction or home mortgage deduction and can fill a that bucket, if you will. >> mitt romney breaks out the golden bucket to save his budget. tonight, obama campaign's senior adviser on mitt romney's fuzzy math. >>> devastating new poll numbers show mitt romney's secret video is crushing his campaign. >> i'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility. >> richard wolffe on how aggressive the president needs e to be on the 47% tape. >>> mitt romney's billionaire base is starting to lose their cool. >> we need leadership, not criticism. we need encouragement, not discouragement. >> e.j. deon on why billionaires who do so well under obama can't stand the president. >>> and democrats with a victory for voters in pennsylvania, but republican voter fraud is getting swept under the rug here in colorado. tonight the latest on the rnc's voter fraud scandal. >>>
rise, said the debates could be the last best chance for romney to deliver a decisive blow, change the narrative and steady his campaign." that's quite a tall order, david. sounds like a level of desperation there and desperation then leads to mistakes as we've seen in the past. is that a worry at all for the romney camp? i've heard some analysts say that he needs a hail mary. i mean, is it that dramatic? >> absolutely. the romney camp won't come out and say that. everybody sort of tries to downplay expectations before these things. all eyes are on romney. he's trailing in the polls nationally and in the swing states. he said to his supporters, hey, you know, when i name a running mate and when i'm at my convention you're going to see the bumps. you haven't seen sustained bumps. this is his chance to do it. he's running out of chances. 60 member people could watch these debates. this is a big chance for him. >> the challenger gets a butch just for sharing a stage with the president in the first debate. any chance the romney camp could play it safe this first time out on wednesday?
. senior adviser david axelrod. we expect mitt romney to be prepared disciplined and aggressive debater. governor pawlenty said he is as good as it gets in debating. maybe this is why the romney campaign predicted he will turn in a campaign changing performance such as ronald reagan's in 1980. here is the truth about obama and romney, neither a stellar debater. obama didn't shine in the democratic primary debates, biden won them. that's why obama picked biden. candidate obama had a tendency to ramble in the debates, got better during mccain one on ones. while romney did well in this season's gop debates, had rough performances, bet you $10,000 he did. romney performances, the unspoken body language that the camera captured, they were brutal against ted kennedy. ivy league will enjoy biden versus ryan more. trust me. >>> turning back to the brand new battleground polls. there's a different pattern emerging, president obama is ahead in new hampshire, tighter in nevada and north carolina. joining me, director of the marist poll. good to see you in person. >> welcome to the home of the new
speaker, he will do just fine. >> mitt romney has an advantage, he has been through 20 debates in the primaries in the last year. >> barack obama is an effective debater. >> governor romney has been practicing for months. i think the invasion of normandy took less preparation than he is putting into the debates. >> hasn't had a debate against a democrat in over ten years i guess it would be probably 2002. >> i have never been in a presidential debate like this, it will be a new experience. >> is your head spinning? expectations came at a fevered pitch. yesterday afternoon we got memos. first one was a memo from romney senior adviser beth myers that couldn't stop praising the president. president obama is a universely aclaimed public speaker. voters already believe by a 25 point margin that president obama is likely to do a better job in the debates, given president obama's natural gifts and extensive seasoning under the bright lights of the debate stage. this morning, the obama campaign countered with its memo. senior adviser david axelrod. we expect mitt romney to be prepared
, as mitt romney prepares to debate president obama in the presidential debate, and give advice on what undecided voters want to hear. and tough questions for the republican challenger. and for the president, is the mainstream media tipping the scales toward the left? pat buchanan speaks out. plus, corruption, crime, chaos, documentary phil make -- film maker says it's business as usual at the united nations. >> ladies and gentlemen, governor mike huckabee. [applause] >> hello, everybody, thank you. great group of folks we have here and welcome to huckabee from the fox news studios in new york city. all right, last week on this show, i told you that your government had lied to you about the attacks in egypt and libya when they claimed they were just acts of a spontaneous mob in reaction it a youtube video. i said then and i repeat now, i normally would not have used such strong language and made such a bold declaration, but the continuing revelations confirmed that my statement was not an exaggeration. our government had lied to us, and they did it knowingly. our ambassador to libya is
Search Results 0 to 49 of about 104 (some duplicates have been removed)